Hi Dale!
I admire the courage you have! Spirituality is a difficult subject, a
touchy subject for most of us, just like politics (these two subjects
often require moderators when forums are dedicated to them :)). BTW, I
ran into your pages via HotWired, my favorite haunt.
Let me share with you though my own sneaking suspicion in these regards.
That is, the next 10 years and 15 years BIG changes are coming in both
the Net and Spirituality. Both are going to become extremely popular. We
will both be very pleased by what we see. So what you are doing now is
very essential for our spiritual progress. I look forward to hearing
from you in the future!
Yours in the Great Work,
Matthew Phillips
geni@sprynet.com
At 03:11 PM 8/28/96 +0000, you wrote:
>I admire the courage you have! Spirituality is a difficult subject, a
>touchy subject for most of us, just like politics (these two subjects
>often require moderators when forums are dedicated to them :)). BTW, I
>ran into your pages via HotWired, my favorite haunt.
Thank you Matthew for taking the time to write! And thank you for the
affirmations. I too enjoy the "WIRED" contributions to the computer mediated
culture that is growing around us.
>Let me share with you though my own sneaking suspicion in these regards.
>That is, the next 10 years and 15 years BIG changes are coming in both
>the Net and Spirituality.
I agree. What kinds of changes do you see? As you may have seen in some
of my pages, I have made a study of this; I want to be a "Net Sociologist"
and "Net Theologian" (I guess I am already. I just want to get better at
it and build some areas on the Web where community can be enabled in some
way.
Both are going to become extremely popular. We
>will both be very pleased by what we see. So what you are doing now is
>very essential for our spiritual progress. I look forward to hearing
>from you in the future!
Same here Matthew. Please "hang around" and hopefully very soon I will
find a way to set up a "forum" handling interface that will allow all of
us to create some importaant conversations. I am truly excited by the possibilities
that await us.
Subject: Searching Too.
X-UIDL: 841406331.006
Status: RO
Well Dale,
I found your work to be very thought provoking and exciting.
I grew up in middle Tennessee and in the 60's I was turned off to
denominational paradigm by "conventional" spirituality/piety in my
community. Put simply, people didn't walk their talk. So I set off for
school and to this day I continue the search.... for the truth that is
correct for me only. I am in total agreement with you that the becoming
isn't as important as the being, for becoming a Christian for some is long
and difficult as it was for me, but the real challenge is the daily self
vigilance of being. In your section "Faith Alone" you say, ""faith" is
in
truer, more multifaceted sense of the word: a wholistic faith which works
on
the totality of a person; on their outlook, their resulting actions, and
their sense of place in the meaning of life."
That statement in fact reflects the entire point of the ACIM (A Course
In
Miracles). Peace.
ACIM says there are but two feelings. One of love and the other fear and
we
are in one or the other at any given moment. When we are experiencing love
we are in a state of peace and when we are in a state of fear, we can simply
choose again.
Well, enough from me, I am sure you will encounter ACIM in time if you
haven't already as it finds you when you are ready. Same belief as many
non-Western approaches.
Again, thank you for a most enjoyable journey through your personal process,
and by the way, I love your "Balcony People". ........
>From just one more.........
Searcy
From: Maggie Heineman <<maggie@critpath.org>
Subject: Tony Campolo at the DNC; Bridges of Respect
X-UIDL: 841321225.000
Status: RO
Maggie Heineman here,
This is a long post, but it seems an "open moment"
to introduce a topic which has been on my mind
for several months.
Tony Campolo, a well-known Evangelical author and preacher,
and outspoken critic of the Christian Coalition, will be giving
the opening prayer at the Democratic National Convention
tomorrow, Thursday, August 29, at 4:00 PM in the afternoon.
Tony Campolo has made media appearances on behalf of Evangelical
Christians who oppose the political agenda of the Christian Coalition.
He is a spokesperson for church leaders who, in May 1995, issued a
statement which stated, "Together, we proclaim an evangelical,
biblical, and catholic faith that must address a nation in crisis."
The "Cry for Renewal Statement" is on the web at
<underline><color><param>0000,0000,fefe</param>http://cwo.com/~folc/cry4rene.html
</color></underline>
Excerpts from the "Cry for Renewal Statement:"
>The almost total identification of the Religious Right with
>the new Republican majority in Washington is a dangerous liaison
>of religion with political power. With the ascendancy and
>influence of the Christian Right in party circles, the religious
>critique of power has been replaced with the religious competition
>for power.
>Likewise, the continuing close identification of religious
>liberalism with political liberalism and the
>Democratic Party has demonstrated a public witness often
>lacking in moral imagination or prophetic integrity.
>Today, the body politic is buffeted by polarized extremes.
>Instead of helping a politically war weary public find common
>concerns and values, the religious community, on both sides,
>has often given sanction to the perpetuation of tragic divisions.
Tony Campolo is on the faculty at Eastern College, St. Davids,
Pennsylvania; Founder and President for the Evangelical
Association for the Promotion of Education; and a member of Mt.
Carmel Baptist Church in West Philadelphia. One of Tony's admirers
has built a website at http://www.engr.mun.ca/~joshua/tony_books.html
My name is Margaret Andrus Heineman. My parents and the Campolos were
friends. They knew each other because my father, J. Russell Andrus,
was the founder of the Department at Economics and Business at Eastern
College in St. Davids. My parents were members (and my Dad taught
Sunday School) at Mt. Carmel Baptist Church in the late sixties and
early seventies. My parents and the Campolos were the only white
members of Mt. Carmel at that time.
While Tony continues his membership at Mt. Carmel, Peggy Campolo
is a member of the Central Baptist Church in Wayne, an open and
affirming American Baptist Church. Peggy is active in Evangelicals
Concerned and is on the speaking circuit as a proponent of
equal justice for gay and lesbian people.
For some time I have planned to contact Peggy and Tony Campolo
because of my interest in developing a "Bridges of Respect Project."
See http://www.critpath.org/pflag-talk/bridges/
which, among other things, would aid families which are divided over
the issue of homosexuality. I believe that Peggy and Tony Campolo
are role models for us in this regard. They hold different views
about homosexuality.
This afternoon I had some background correspondence
about the Campolos with a pflag-talker who is
on the religion list and a member of the Central
Wayne Baptist Church. The Reverend Peter Wool was
on the Interfaith Working Group letterhead when he
was the pastor of the Central Wayne Baptist Church.
Today, the pflag-talker/religion-lister wrote me
about Peggy Campolo:
>She travels a lot, so she's around maybe half the time.
>She's a really neat lady, redheaded and "naturally
>sexy" <<sigh>. Her hubby Tony is an absolute
>riot (he shows up at CBC occasionally, but he's a
>member of another church and usually goes there when he's
>not on the road). The way they've "agreed to
>disagree" and respect and support each other's work is
>amazing (he says in effect, you can *be* queer if that's
>the way you are, and it's wrong to mistreat or discriminate
>against queerpeople, but it's wrong to *do* queer,
>you should just tie a knot in it and do the best you can,
>it's more or less "your cross to bear"). I doubt they're
>home right now, they're probably up in
>P-town if I know them (they spend a couple of weeks up
>there around this time of year and love it).
This explanation of Tony Campolo's view of homosexuality
is consistent (though differs in choice of language :-)
with what I heard Tony say on a radio talk show,
have read in a cover story in Philadlephia Inquirer
Magazine, and on the web in a story from the Seattle Gay News.
<underline><color><param>0000,0000,fefe</param>http://electra.cortland.com/sgn/sgn.9.15.95/coalitio.htm
</color></underline>
Peggy Campolo, on the other hand, does not think it is
wrong to "do queer." Because of their ability to love
and respect each other despite this difference of opinion,
I have been intending to contact them about the "Bridges of
Respect" project.
So, this afternoon, because of the post earlier today on
pflag-talk and the ensuing background correspondence, I phoned
Peggy Campolo. Talk about your synchronicity :-) Peggy couldn't
stay on the phone, because she on the way out the door to
catch a plane to Chicago. She told me about Tony's invitation to give
the prayer at the DNC and said nobody knew about it because
she hadn't had time to call people. I asked her if it was okay
for me to announce it on the Internet and she said yes.
So that's it.
In doing the web search I found an anti-Campolo page at
<underline><color><param>0000,0000,fefe</param>http://www.eznet.com/~simmply/bdm/Exposes/campolo/general.htm
</color></underline>
>Campolo is a theological liberal and a radical political
>socialist whose teachings are heretical at best and blasphemous
>at worst!
>There is absolutely no doubt at all in my heart, that the
>spirit that was speaking through Tony on this night was not
>the Holy Spirit, but the spirit of the antichrist.
The anti-Campolo web page says Campolo is New Age, Marxist,
and a tool of Satan who talks about "the Christ within."
According to that web page, Tony and Peggy share the same
view of homosexality. This is not true. It says:
>The fact is that Tony Campolo, and especially his
>wife Peggy, are activists in homosexual causes.
The fact is that Tony Campolo is *not* an activist in
homosexual causes, but his wife Peggy is.
Maggie (posted Wednesday, August 28, 1996)
------
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Thu, 29 Aug 1996 20:07:27 -0500
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 20:07:27 -0500
I
visited the site mentioned above (http://www.eznet.com/~simmply/bdm/Exposes/campolo/general.htm)
and it angered me, so I wrote a note in defense of Tony, realizing that
this would most assuredly fall on deaf ears, which it did. The
dialogue follows at this location:
To: dlature@comcast.net
Subject: Saw Your Web Pages...
http://www.iac.net/~dlature/itseminary/creaspir/dialogue.html
...and I was quite amused at your run-in with Constance Cumbey. I run
a mailing list, and maintain a Web site, relating to Centering Prayer
(at http://www.io.com/~lefty/COHome.html and I received a good bit of
mail from Constance alleging that Centering Prayer was both "New Age"
and "Gnostic", claiming that, among others, Fathers Thomas Keating and
Basil Pennington (Cistercian monks who helped develop the practice of
Centering Prayer) were heretics, etc., etc. She quoted many of the
same scriptures to me that she shared with you, and with as little
point. She advised me that she was the one responsible for getting
Matthew Fox "kicked out" of the Catholic Church, and that she was
going to forward copies of all my Web pages and our correspondence to
Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger.
As an Episcopalian, I was mildly amused by this last bit of advice.
She eventually denounced me (as I gather she did you) as a "heretick"
and went off, I suppose, to try to scare someone else. Fairly sad,
really. She does a very poor "King James English": can't remember
that "hath" goes with "thou" and "hast" goes with "he".
I've actually read her book, such as it is, _Secrets of the Rainbow_,
in which she alleges, on the basis on no particular evidence that
apparently all non-Cumbey-approved-Christian groups are part of a
vast, monolithic "New Age conspiracy". I can't much recommend it
unless you really enjoy such silliness. Anyway, I was amused to see
that I'm not alone in having been a target of Ms. Cumbey.
Subject: Wonderful
Ultimately found you by searching on Nouwen (Henri). Then I saw Servant
Leadership School. We at The Church of the Covenant in Lynchburg VA are
"close kin" to The Church of the Savior in Washington.
I sure am hooked on high tech, though I think in many ways it's a delimer
for Biblical faith, in the sense of diversion from physical presence in
community, the reality of the poor, simpler lifestyle etc. - but it's a
huge reality, great fun, and maybe God has great plans for it through
people like you and others.
Thanks so much for your good work!
Will Cardwell
Status: RO
Please consider adding our pages to your site:
River Oaks Presbyterian Church, PCA
<underline><color><param>0000,0000,fefe</param>http://www.cresnet.org/~ropresch/index.html
</color></underline>
River Oaks Presbyterian Church is located in Greenwood, Indiana
(South Indianapolis). We are part of the Presbyterian Church in
America (PCA), one of the fastest growing denominations in the U.S.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Also...............
"The Highway"
<underline><color><param>0000,0000,fefe</param>http://www.wp.com/highway
</color></underline>
"The Highway" is a great source for solid evangelism,
Reformed Theology, interactive WebChat, and quality links.
Thanks....Rick
--
Status: RO
Hello. I found your name in the on-line Sojourners directory. It
seems we may have similar interests.
Thought you may want to know about a new web site that covers the areas
of spirituality, spirit and social action, community movements,
cooperative economics, sustainable development and living, and provides
a highlight of the Sarvodaya Shramadana Movement in Sri Lanka, one of
the world's largest spiritually-based community development movements.
Please tell others.
Movement for Beloved Community
http://home.earthlink.net/~rflyer/index.html
Peace,
Richard Flyer
rflyer@earthlink.net
Subject: I'm Interested
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Status:
X-UIDL: 836779698.017
Status: RO
Sir:
We're also interested in Matthew Fox's work on Creation
Spirituality. Does his Institute have a Web page? Are you
involved with the Institute in CA?
If you have info, please email us.
Thanks,
Raymond
Subject: Christianity
http://www.iac.net/~dlature/itseminary/Dialogue/PositiveComments.html
I stumbled across your sight tonight when things were moving too slowly
at my usual Christian chatsight *smile* and was pleased to find someone
who seemed to share some of my concerns about the narrowness of the organized
Christian community. I am not a theologian, but I have tried to pay attention
to the writings that I have believed the Holy Spirit sent my way and have
been deeply influenced by C.S.Lewis, M.Scott Peck, and Hannah Hurnell.
In my almost 20 years as a Christian, I have seen so much emphasis on correctness
of doctrine and so little on the Love of Christ; my own son is repulsed
by the very word "Christian" simply because of the ugliness he has seen
within the Christian community. Because I believe in the concept of the
Body of Christ, and the need for the fellowship of believers, I have struggled
to remain within the only representation of that Body that has been available
to me (the Church) but it has
been very difficult, and I generally either have to keep my beliefs to
myself or risk offending and
alienating those I consider my brethren. I am not familiar with the writings
of Mr.Fox, but I do believe that Christ is someone much bigger than the
ideas I hear expressed in church. In fact, I recently shocked a fellow
chatter by saying that I often feel closer in spirit to some of the pagans
who enter the Lighthouse (chatroom - I turned to the chatroom hoping to
find more openmindedness than I have found in my congregation) than to
many who call themselves Christian. I find witness in my spirit with many
of the things you said, and I wish you success. May God's blessing go before
you.
In His Love,
A fellow sojourner
--
MZ
At 08:34 PM 5/14/96 -0500, you wrote:
>I stumbled across your sight tonight when things were moving too slowly
at my usual Christian chatsight
>*smile* and was pleased to find someone who seemed to share some of my
concerns about the narrowness of
>the organized Christian community.
Gary,
I too am pleased whenever I get affirming notes such as yours. I hope
that what I have offered here (as "non-graphic" as it is, and still as
incomplete as it is) can do for many others what you expressed: that is,
to point to the many dimensions of the church that have not given in to
various cultural and socio-economic pressures to water down the gospel.
I have found it so difficult to find people who can find their way through
the messages we are bombarded with to recognize that the gospel questions
nearly all that we have learned, particularly a lot of what we have learned
"in church" and from Western theology.
>I am not a theologian, but I have tried to pay attention to the >writings
that I have believed the Holy Spirit sent my way and have been deeply influenced
by C.S.Lewis,
>M.Scott Peck, and Hannah Hurnell. In my almost 20 years as a Christian,
I have seen so much emphasis on
>correctness of doctrine and so little on the Love of Christ; my own son
is repulsed by the very word
>"Christian" simply because of the ugliness he has seen within the Christian
community.
I too, see many acquaintances with similar revulsions toward the church
as they have known it
>Because I believe
>in the concept of the Body of Christ, and the need for the fellowship
of believers, I have >struggled to
>remain within the only representation of that Body that has been available
to me (the Church) >but it has
>been very difficult
I hear and deeply identify. If you look at some of the material I have
written on "Servant Leadership School" I have been involved with since
last fall, you will get a glimpse of what I have experienced as my one
and only "Community" (in the face to face sense) over the past 5 years
since I left Seminary. Although I stay in contact with Seminary classmates
and teachers, and have met face to face with my online classmates on a
couple of occasions, nothing else of a sustained, regular nature like that
I envision that the Church should provide has been present for me. http://www.iac.net/~dlature/cmcenter/slsbroch.html
describes the Servat Leadership School as it was presented to me last fall,
and at http://www.iac.net/~dlature/cmcenter/slgroup.html
I describe a bit of my hope that this face to face group will help me
to root my online community efforts in the realities of face to face relationship
struggles in listening to others, discerning theirs and our own gifts,
and both enabling others and allowing ourselves to be enabled by others.
, and I generally either have to keep my beliefs to myself or risk offending
and
>alienating those I consider my brethren. I am not familiar with the
writings of Mr.Fox, but I do believe
>that Christ is someone much bigger than the ideas I hear expressed
in church.
Yes, for me, Fox has articulated quite well the concept of spirituality
as "more than" or "beyond" the bounds in which we normally, often narrowly
confine, the experience of the center of all being. I would heartily encourage
your investigating a book such as "Coming of the Cosmic Christ", "Creation
Spirituality" and his latest, a biography called "Confessions: The Making
of a Post-Denominational Priest"
In fact, I recently shocked
>a fellow chatter by saying that I often feel closer in spirit to some
of the pagans who enter the
>Lighthouse (chatroom - I turned to the chatroom hoping to find more
openmindedness than I have found in my
>congregation) than to many who call themselves Christian.
I resonate with that one as well. It is certainly true for me. (Although
I am very fortunate to have quite a few in line who have helped to bring
me to the point where I can see the beauty and spirituality of the "non-believers"
(as the narrowly-evangelistic so often refer to them).
I find witness in my spirit with many of the
>things you said, and I wish you success. May God's blessing go before
you.
Gary, thank you again. I hope you will check back and stay in dialogue.
I really believe this online rush is going to help broaden the reach of
community (and it will also , paradoxically, move others further into isolation).
I believe that many who have been "stifled" in some way by the church can
discover online some community with others like them whom they can find
by "searching" (in a spiritual sense AND a technological/software sense
through tools such as Yahoo, WebCrawler, Excite, etc.)
Dale
Subject: Cosmic Christ?
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-UIDL: 838249113.000
We found you while looking for information on Tony Campollo, which
happens
to be one of our favourite preachers.
We read one of the flame letters you received and would like to help
you out by asking you some easy questions, and give you an opportunity
to clarify yourself, as we find your style of writing a little
"confusable".
1) Is Christ misrepresented by the Gospels? Are there other incarnations
of Christ than the "historic Jesus"?
2) Is there a way to reconciliation with God other than through Jesus
Christ?
3) Can you go to heaven after sacrificing to and believing in the
millions
of gods in the hindu tradition if you're born Indian?
4) Can Muhammed clense you of your sin?
5) What does "holy" mean to you?
6) How do you read the first commandment?
Yours in Christ,
Mr. Geir E. R. Gundersen and Mr. Per Kristian Nielsen
At 10:50 PM 7/24/96 +0000, you wrote:
>1) Is Christ misrepresented by the Gospels? Are there other incarnations
>of Christ than the "historic Jesus"?
No, but I think the Christ of the Gospels is misrepresented by several
of its interpreters.
There are no other incarnations of Christ than the historical Jesus.
My point is that the person of Christ is a larger concept than the historical
Jesus. The fact that he was incarnate in the historical Jesus is a crucial
piece of theology, however, the immmense significance of Christ is felt
outside the boundaries of "Christian theology" as it is commonly identified.
I believe that people outside of the Christian tradition have the experience
of God; of Christ himself, and yet their identification of that experience
will be in other than "Christian" terminology, but this does not change
the fact of who it is that brings them the experience.
>2) Is there a way to reconciliation with God other than through Jesus
>Christ?
No. But as I have described above, the "receiver of Christ" does not
always know how to identify this as Christ; their "ultimate spiritual experience"
may well seem to them to come straight from the mouth of their own tradition's
best. But this does not change the fact that truth to human beings is revealed
through Christ.
>3) Can you go to heaven after sacrificing to and believing in the
>millions
>of gods in the hindu tradition if you're born Indian?
If you look at the positions of the world's traditions in a sociological
perspective, there are many many ways that humanity has devised to try
to understand the ultimate within the limitations of cultural expression.
I do not think that present day Western society concepts of God have God
very well described either, in spite of the fact that we have a written
history that we consider to be the message of God. The interpretation sof
it are very "tinted" by our c own cultural lenses (biases).
I believe there is one supreme being, and that the historical Jesus
was the incarnation of this supreme being. I also believe that the being
of Jesus is a defining spiritual force in the ultimate being's influence
upon humanity. I believe that this being is the Cosmic Christ, and that
the world's struggle to know this and to express this in their lives grow
up in many ways throughout history and in various cultures.
>4) Can Muhammed cleanse you of your sin?
I don't know much of Muhammed's teaching, but I doubt it.
>5) What does "holy" mean to you?
Different (this is the literal meaning) To stand apart; to confront
the "staus quo" and proclaim a different set of values that set first the
idea of community, love, and the seeking of the fulfillment of all people
>6) How do you read the first commandment?
You shall have no other Gods before me
"NO other values shall supersede mine" (for these are of other mythologies
which do not draw from the Kingdom values but from those of this world)
THanks for the questions. Feel free to respond to these as well.
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 23:52:22 -0700
From: Peter Westhorp <<Peter.Westhorp@osa.com.au>
Subject: Hard to read your dialog!`
Hello Dale
I was browsing after hours here in Australia (using up an employer's fast
Web connection! :-) when I came across your site. For the first time, I
had a glimmer of hope that the sort of thing I've been looking for MAY
be
buried in your web. I plunged into your Dialog section -- but gave up
after five or six pages. The reason: your replies are running endlessly
off the right side of the page, stretching an entire paragraph into one
enormously long line. It's hard to follow the gist of a thought a
"right-scroll" at a time!
The interspersed comments of your correspondents are wrapped
conveniently, but your replies track on toward the Right Infinity. Can
you intersperse a few "Enter" keystrokes for the right-reading-challenged
among your audience, please? (I'm using Netscape 2.01 tonight.)
By the way, the sort of thing I am looking for is a "Theology for the
21st Century" -- a Christian theology expressed in public language (not
religious jargon) accessible to ordinary people, and which takes into
account the directions of modern science (a view of the _same_ creation,
surely, that theology acknowledges!). My own background is one of cyclic
disenchantment with the established churches on grounds similar to those
I read in your dialogs: our failure to live as disciples; a growing sense
of irrelevance of a lot of the cultural baggage of the churches (I
currently attend a Lutheran church after years in Anglican [Episcopalian]
and a foray into Methodist communions); and more. Any pointers? (An email
reply would be great as I don't get time to browse very often...)
One final point. I was recently contacted by the secretary of a new-ish
organisation called the Australian Theological Forum. As I understand it
so far, this is an organisation devoted to the promotion of inter-church
discussions on theology and its application to social issues today (which
sounds interesting to me). Although this guy lives in the next state,
we've been 'led' together by a chain of 'coincidence' just as I am
thinking about the kinds of theolgy that might be discussed/discussable
on the web, and the ATF is trying to establish a web presence. I'm very
familiar with setting up a web site as such (I did most of the one[s]
listed below on my own, but not quite all of them); but I was wondering
if you had any specific pointers about operating a pecifically
THEOLOGICAL web site derived from your experience so far.
Any comments gratefully received. And now, a little more browsing your
web...
Regards
Peter
To: dlature@comcast.net
Subject: Graphics and stuff
Me again, and getting more interested the more I browse. Keep up the good
work!
In response to your questions about graphical aspects of the web: it's
becoming more critical on web sites, isn't it? I wanted to get Photoshop
as THE professional graphics package that designers use for bitmap
manipulation; but the employers of the day (I move around on contracts)
would not run to the purchase price... and it does require a fair bit of
expertise.
In the end we bought Micrografx package of Picture Publisher (the really
important product for what you want to do) and Designer (for what is
called vector graphics, but comes with a good collection of clip art you
can import into PP). I've found that pretty reasonable to use (a FEW
things need careful reading of the manual or on-line help), and it can
do
most of the whizzy stuff you need in graphics manipulation.
But I have to warn you: graphics are HOGS. They take your development
time in great globs; they hog the net resources in transfer; they gobble
up your disk space on development machines and web servers. My
suggestion: tread lightly into that briar patch! Don't be driven to
pretty up everything, but be selective with your use of graphics...
I have personally been very dissatisfied with the Corel products at my
disposal -- so I disposed of them! However, I know of others who have
been content to use them. I found their manipulation of color palettes
to
be very frustrating, their stability to be problematic, and their speed
of operation to be unbearably slow. But, each to his or her own, I
suppose.
No knowledge on conferencing tools yet. I see you set up the link to
HotWired, but I got very confused when I tried it... asked me for a
password (which of course I didn't have) and then gave me a page offering
me a tour as a guest... when I tried that link I got asked for a password
again, tried "guest" as the login without password, was rejected,
dejected, ejected.
I'm coming back to your site to browse some more at another day, I hope;
but for now I have overstayed my welcome, keeping the lights in the
office burning until almost 1am. Thanks for your site -- I look forward
to learning more.
Regards
Peter
From: Joan Cole <<jscole@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>
It is so important that we all start speaking out about fundamentalism.
The so-called fundamentalists are completely missing the *real*
fundamentals of living your spirituality every day. To me it boils down
to peace/beauty/joy/wonder/awe and the struggle for
justice/love/balance/respect for one another. To me, these are the most
important lessons expressed by Christ. To me, it is actually completely
irrelevant whether or not Christ was a historical figure. I don't care!
The lessons are still worthy, and should be studied on that basis. One
of the best things about Fox's writings and Creation Spirituality is that
it places the focus where it should have been all along - Original
Blessing rather than Original Sin. Spiritual writings are metaphorical.
The meat is in following the metaphor. What so-called fundamentalists do
is eat the menu rather than ordering from it.
My own reluctance to admit I was a Christian for many years (even to
myself) stems from the so-called fundamentalists' domination of the
definition. The time is past for creeds and laws. Humans must find
their own pure inner knowing and work from that. We must move forward
into a partnership society if we are to avoid extinction.
Sister Ia, Llan Dobhran
At 01:58 PM 7/27/96 -0700, you wrote:
>It is so important that we all start speaking out about fundamentalism.
>The so-called fundamentalists are completely missing the *real*
>fundamentals of living your spirituality every day. To me it boils down
>to peace/beauty/joy/wonder/awe and the struggle for
>justice/love/balance/respect for one another.Sister Ia,
I agree and heartily "amen" that.
How did you happen across my page(s)? From what links?
When I saw your note in my inbox with the subject "Re: What is a Christian?",
I rolled my eyes, assuming that here was another note protesting that I
did not "narrow down" my definition and include all the "points" which
everyone seems to include. People seem to get upset if things are not nailed
down neatly. Not me. For me, this is what Matthew Fox captures so well
(if one can "capture" it) in his writing. He knows how to write the questions
and back them up with real experience.
>The meat is in following the metaphor. What so-called fundamentalists
do
>is eat the menu rather than ordering from it.
I like that. The tendency to deify the writings rather than the subject
of them has led to today's "fundamentalist" style of confusing the medium
with the message. It is here where I feel the Church and spirituality may
have found a liberating medium to help communicate, since there is so much
that can be done with the "story telling" possibilities for this medium.
>My own reluctance to admit I was a Christian for many years (even to
>myself) stems from the so-called fundamentalists' domination of the
>definition.
Yeah, they did "take over" quite a few good words, and have made heresy
out of many others. Even the concept of "The Word" has been "reversed"
from its intent, which is to say that God's word was a person in the Christ,
and not the other way around.
Your note is a breath of fresh air in what is, on the Net, often a suffocating
spiritual environment, largelydue to the "doctrinal guardians" of the Net
who cruise around looking for heresy. We need to use this medium to help
get us to important information about the world, about relationships, and
help us to meet and understand each other.
By the way, what is your own "affiliation" now; with what community
(s) do you "hang out" with?
Subject: Re: What is a Christian?
To: dlature@comcast.net (Dale Lature)
Dale,
It's so wonderful to get such a quick response. I'm not really sure
how I found your page... I believe one of the pages in your web popped
up
in a search for creation spirituality on alta vista, but I'm not sure.
It
could have been a link down that I followed from another page. I
generally don't make use of the "Christian Resources" pages because they
are so full of the deadening hateful stuff that the fundies have already
clogged the web with.
> Your note is a breath of fresh air in what is, on the Net, often a
> suffocating spiritual environment, largelydue to the "doctrinal guardians"
> of the Net who cruise around looking for heresy. We need to use this
medium
> to help get us to important information about the world, about
> relationships, and help us to meet and understand each other.
>
> By the way, what is your own "affiliation" now; with what community (s)
do
> you "hang out" with?
I'm not sure if you really wanted a long response, but here one comes :)
A seed community of four, including myself, felt called to start a new
church
here in Champaign. We are self-ordained (with the initial paperwork kick
from
the ULC, which is how many pagan ministers get their state-approved
ordinations) and have completed the paperwork for tax exemption. I suppose
you could say that we are a youth ministry, since those who have joined
our
church are in the 18-34 age group, though that is not the design per se,
it
is really those who are receptive to our take on building community. The
church is called "Great Spirit Community Church". We don't want to shut
people out with names that have been so dominated by those who have taken
control of the dialogue in the outer world. God/dess is God/dess no matter
what name you call hir by. Calling hir "Divine Parent" is better... at
least
that doesn't shut 51% of the population out from the experience. But we
felt
Great Spirit is more personal (Divine Parent sounds so antiseptic somehow).
Every Sunday afternoon we meet in one of the member's homes, cook a communal
dinner, possibly have a ritual celebration (if someone has written one)
or
else just discuss spirituality - whatever any member feels called to bring
up,
we all discuss bringing our own experiences and studies to bear. We have
camping events in the summer, and a separate Bible study session on Monday
evenings. Today we will be celebrating Lammas, for which the NT reading
is
Acts 12:1-17 (The feast of St. Peter Ad Vincula). This should really be
August 1, but we do move weekday feasts to either the Sunday before or
after.
It is not only the celebration of Peter's release from prison, but also
"Loaf Mass", a celebration of first fruits, the beginning of the harvest
time.
I guess you could say we are trying to bring to fruit, in our own small
way,
the prediction that "Mysticism will replace Jesusolatry in religious circles,
and it will be an age of Deep Ecumenism." Right now, there are 4 including
myself in this church who have felt the call to the vocation, and we have
a
regular attendance of about 10 people around the table on Sundays right
now.
We just started this a matter of months ago, and we regularly see new faces.
It's a strange church, and I'm sure the fundies would be even more distressed
with how we are going back to what we know of the first-century Christian
model of community than with how you are putting up a definition page on
the
web that doesn't include their favorite doctrinal exclusion points.
I'll tell you a little about the ministers to give you an idea of how deeply
ecumenical we really are. We started this together and we are all equal
voices to the state. (That's the only reason we even have "ministers" -
for
the state). We are Kent, Michael, Rowan, and myself. Michael and I were
involved in various pagan groups together since about 1983, and had a
flourishing clan, into which we initiated Kent in 1992. Rowan married Kent
about 2 years ago. When Kent came into our pagan circle, he brought up
his
own Christian views and that slowly got Michael and I reexamining our own
antipathy to what was called "Christian" in the larger society. Did you
know
that it is possible to be Christian and be willing to explore other spiritual
traditions as well? Kent was the first person we had met who exemplified
this.
Paganism is a beautiful earth-centered tradition that has at its core
celebration of the many facets of divinity. When I found my first pagan
circle
it was like a breath of fresh air. Suddenly there was a place for me where
I was not a mere handmaid. Where divinity had a face that was like mine.
Sometimes it was female! The usual Christian church (I was brought up
Roman Catholic) has only two faces for the female - breeder and harlot.
I just
cannot identify with that church. The sad thing I have learned is that
Jesus
was not propogating that treatment of the female. In the earliest Christian
churches women were *full* participants. Furthermore, I came to learn that
it is not the Christian message that man is supposed to dominate and rape
the
earth. That message arises out of fallible human interpretations. As I
came
to see that I could be Christian without stifling my own spiritual growth,
I
also came to realize the fundamentalism that was starting to poison the
pagan
community. There are those in the pagan community who are deeply challenged
if you even reference a Jesus parable. I cannot judge this... many of us
who
came to paganism did so after being deeply wounded spiritually by the
Christian *Church*. But at some point, for our own self-interest, to heal
our own wounds, we have to forgive.
Rereading the above, I realize that it looks like exposure to one person's
arguments changed my heart. Actually I did not start to call myself Christian
again until I came across 2 books. 1) Creation Spirituality by Matthew
Fox,
which I actually picked up because of the sacred hoop diagram on page 24
(I
have long worked with earth-air-fire-water and this finally gave a context
in which Christianity could fit into my own spiritual studies) and 2) Prayers
of the Cosmos (the new translations of the Lord's Prayer and the Beatitudes
made me realize that there was actually true magickal knowledge that has
just
been very very badly translated and not understood by those afraid to delve
into those mystery teachings that have survived or been recovered). I'm
convinced that there is similar depth hiding under the parables and even
the
journey of a man's life described in the New Testament, but none of that
fruit will ripen until people can get past being stuck on the surface story.
And none of that fruit will ripen until those wounded by the violators
of
Deuteronomy 5:8-10 can bring the learnings and understandings of divinity
they have found outside the church back to the church. Yes, as I understand
it, Jesusolatry is still idolatry.
My community is a safe community where those courageous enough to step
outside
the homogenized story can deepen their spirituality by learning about other
traditions. It is a safe community where those who have been wounded can
come to forgiveness. It is a community based on celebrating life rather
than
necrophilia. There are no idols of wounded men on crosses. There is so
much
more to the story than that. If little churches like ours sprang up in
every
town, can you imagine what a different world it might be?
Sister Ia
To: dlature@comcast.net
Subject: Definition of Christianity
Dear Mr. Lature,
I am a bit confused by your definition of Christianity and the role of
Jesus Christ in our salvation.
Let me see if I have it clear:
You believe that Jesus Christ is the only way to God, the only One
through whom we can receive salvation.
However, you also believe that other religions having a similar view of
a savior are also Christians believing in Christ, they just don't know
that it is Christ they are actually believing in.
Am I understanding your position? If this is your position, do you feel
it is necessary to show others that it truly is Jesus Christ who is the
"Way, the Truth, and the Life"? Or do you think it doesn't matter
who they believe in as long as it is Christ-like?
Another question: What do you believe is/are the source(s) for
finding truth? And how do you know they are reliable?
Fern
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a long dialogue with one who questions my faith
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